Legalization of Marijuana Oklahoma Lawyer
Jacqui Ford, attorney and host
Norma Sapp, State Director of Oklahoma NORML
Jacqui Ford, attorney and host: Welcome to Your Best Defense podcast. This is Jacqui Ford. And I’m so excited to be with you guys today. Today we’re joined by Norma Sapp. Norma is the state director of the Oklahoma NORML. Norma, thanks for joining us. How do you do?
Norma Sapp, State Director of Oklahoma NORML: Oh, I’m good, very good. Thanks for having me.
J: I’m very excited, and I know we’ve got a lot of things to talk about today. I want to talk to you about what it is that were doing on the legalization and decriminalization of marijuana front here in Oklahoma. But, before we get started Norma, I know a lot of people are going to be listening and they’re going to want to know where to find you. So, how do we find you? If people want to join, or talk to you, or sign your petition, or whatever.
N: Okay. First off, my name Norma SAPP. I have a Facebook page. You can find there, and from there you can find all the other places that I’m connected, and all the other groups I’m connected with. But I also want to send people to Green the Vote Facebook page.
J: And what is Green the Vote Norma?
N: Green the Vote is, and this is kind of a long story, I’ll make it short. Last year we ran a petition under the name Oklahomans for Health. Well, Oklahomans for Health was going to do another petition because we didn’t qualify last year, and they decided, and it was supposed to be released August 1st. They decided they didn’t have the funds yet together to be able to release on August 1st. So they put it off ‘til spring. Well, Green the Vote was all of us ready to go in August.
So, we reformed under Green the Vote, and started a Facebook page, and filled a new petition. It was filed on October 1st. We have a deadline of turning them in on December 29 at the capital, and we are way not there yet. If you have not signed the petition yet, get out and find a petition. You can find that at Green the Vote page on Facebook, or greenthevoteok.com. To find the person nearest you that has a petition, or to get a petition, you can volunteer. Just one page – 20 signatures. If everybody did that we’d be done. We’ve only got a couple weeks. We’ve got to get this done.
J: This is when that one vote really does matter. Right Norma?
N: It does.
J: The collective one votes can make a big difference. Tell us specifically what your petition is designed to do.
N: The petition will allow for medical use of marijuana; allow you to discuss this with your physician. He can recommend, and there are some qualifying conditions that are listed. But basically it says in there you and your doctor decide which conditions you’re going to use it for. It also allows you to grow six plants of your own. And I think for a medical patient they might need more than that. So, there’s some provision for if you’re using the oil then you can do a collective with someone else. But you can read that on greenthevote.com. You can read the full petition there.
We know if we can get it to the ballot we can pass it in Oklahoma. We did a poll, our are best poll was done two years ago August 13. And it says that 72% of us will be accepting medical marijuana, will vote for it. And that also includes Republicans, and old people. Because, as you know, when you’re doing a polling most of the lines that they call are landlines. Well, who has landlines anymore?
J: Grandma and grandpa.
N: Yup, it’s all us old people. Those old people, we all said we will vote for medical-use marijuana. Across the nation the polling numbers are high like that. There was a poll a couple days ago that was released in Georgia. Georgia polled 86% want medical marijuana. And how could you not when you’ve seen all of the children that been saved. The autistic children, epileptic children people, people that have cured their cancer.
I could tell you stories all day about the individuals who left here, went to a medical state, and cured their illness, and then were able to go back to work, or just basically live. One lady from Enid, Oklahoma, she had to sell everything she owns. She was only given five months to live. So, anyway why not? Moved to California. Within two months her cancer, her brain cancer, was gone. Her doctor here was astounded.
So, as these patients are coming back to Oklahoma, and sharing with their physicians here that they’ve fixed their children from epilepsy, or they’ve fixed their cancer. The doctors here are going, “Wow! Maybe there is something to this.” It really is a miracle plant.
J: I agree, and what I love about what’s happening in this movement now is it is really more about knowledge is power. And I love that phrase because it always reminds me of when I was a little girl in school. You know? The big shooting star. But knowledge is power. And the more people know about the benefits of medicinal marijuana, and the more they learn about the realistic downsides of even recreational marijuana, the more people become supportive. It’s not the gateway drug everybody used to tout that it was. And it’s not, you know, you smoke a joint and now you’re a heroin addict.
And what I think is really the most interesting is the numbers really do speak for themselves now. What I find is people who don’t know, and who aren’t involved in some of some of these groups, that even you and I are both involved in, they believed because they’re in Oklahoma, because were the reddest state in the Union that it will never happen here. So, to make the trek anywhere to go sign petition, or move. They’re not motivated to do it, and I think that’s the real tragedy. Right? Because it’s happening. And if 76% of all people polled are in agreeance with it, then we just have to take baby steps. Get our tail ends out there, and make the change. Be the change we want to see.
N: Yeah. When we finally have it available here in Oklahoma, people will see that their next door neighbor that cured their cancer is not turning crazy and killing his grandparents. And all the other reefer madness stuff we’ve been told.
J: Right. Well, the biggest battle that we have, of course, is the decades and decades of almost brainwashing. This idea of the war on drugs, and the only way to save our country. We’ve got a lot of resistance right now Norma, from law enforcement, on the legalization and/or decriminalization of marijuana. I know what my personal opinions are on that. I think probably agree. What are your thoughts? I mean, why is law enforcement so resistant to one: making their job a little easier? And two: allowing the change that has so clearly been beneficial in other states?
N: I think that some of them are totally removed from the information – the real truth. And so they totally believe what they’ve been told. And then every day, every jailer, every policeman, they do see the worst of the worst.
J: Absolutely. It’s a job I do not envy.
N: Right. So what are they to think? They don’t see us normal users that are just normal, go to work, everyday people. They don’t see those users. They only see the worst of the worst people – that also happen to use marijuana.
J: Right.
N: So, that’s where their opinion comes from.
J: And when they’re acting within their training and experience, it’s not that they’re bad folk. I talk about this all the time. I don’t think law enforcement are bad, evil individuals. I think they’re doing what they’ve been trained to do by those that lead the path before them. But I think, you know, times they are changing.
One of the big things I see with marijuana and law enforcement’s resistance to change, at least right now, is this idea behind civil asset forfeiture reform being a huge topic here in Oklahoma right now. We’ve got senators battling about it. We’ve got district attorneys going on radios and debates all over the place. I’ve been part of it. You’ve been a part of it. I think that civil asset forfeiture is a huge reason why law enforcement, and the people who support the idea of civil asset forfeiture, not the reform, but the taking of the property, are resistant to even the change in marijuana laws.
N: If you were told that you couldn’t have the million dollars that you gathered off street last year for your department, you’d be upset too. No matter how you feel about the drug laws. So, that’s where they’re coming from. They don’t want it to end. It’s a gravy train. And, I don’t know if you’re aware of this, you probably are since you’re an attorney. But every time I ever had someone call me and describe what it was like getting raided. You know, these are people that actually had marijuana in their home, and they were breaking the law. But still, when they come into your home, and they choose the things that they’re going take from you, like your family heirlooms, your kid’s toys, and tear up your house completely. And like I said, when they take your belongings that have nothing to do with whether or not you and your friends are smoking cannabis, they just become renegades. The same as the guys used to rob the stagecoaches on the Dusty Pass. And they like that. It’s fun to go into somebody’s house and steal their jewelry, and their family’s heirlooms, and things that they would like to have and that are valuable.
J: And they get to pose pictures of their trophies. Right? Look what we did today!
N: The main thing I dislike about it is that if that stuff was all listed, and it’s truly good evidence, and a good bust, then why does some of that stuff not show up on the property list? Why do they put it in their pocket? This has got to stop. It’s turning them into somebody they shouldn’t be.
J: I know lots of law-enforcement officers who have spoken privately with me about it. About their personal beliefs about marijuana. About their personal beliefs about civil asset forfeiture. And certainly not all cops are bad. Not all cops are doing raids, or pocketing things. And not all cops pulling us over on traffic stops are trying to seize our car and all money out of our pockets. But this is what our officers are being trained to do. And if they’re being trained that this is what the law is, and the law protects it. Then why should they do anything different? Which is what I think is great about regular citizens, like you and me, getting together a saying, “Hey! Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s right.” Right? Just because marijuana is illegal, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Right? And reasonable minds should be able to have a good informed discussion. Not just agree to disagree, but agree to try to move forward and make legislation, to make it a better place for all of us to live. A safer environment not only for our kids who are sick, and our elderlies who need treatment, and quite frankly the rest of us who should be able to recreationally use marijuana anytime you want. If I can pop open a bottle of vodka, and drink every night before I come to work. That’s certainly more dangerous to me, myself, and my body, and my friend than something else.
I think the idea of educating folks, and letting them know that their one voice matters, is what’s to me the most inspiring part of this movement. Is that people from all classes are coming together. People would not otherwise be affiliated with one another are coming together idea of decriminalizing a plant.
N: Certainly. Yeah. For 25 years my voice has been out there trying to bring attention to this. I just want to say thank God for Kyle Loveless for finally listening to this forfeiture issue and, understanding that people are being taken advantage of. Even if they are doing a criminal act, they don’t need to be treated the way they have been.
J: And the crimes don’t oftentimes justify law enforcement’s actions. The kicking in the door, and the SWAT teams, and the guns, and the deaths, and the, you know, horrible stories we see of when they’re kicking in with “no knock”-warrants over marijuana, and throwing smoke bombs into a crib with a baby. Now, if we can stop the true tragedy, isn’t that going to benefit society better than the continued criminalization of marijuana?
N: I have met several people that have PTSD from being raided. And that’s exactly the description that they gave me too, was that their door was kicked in and a flash-bomb was thrown in. And their children were traumatized. They were traumatized, and they’ll probably never get over it. This one man that I know of, he’s scared to even have anybody pull up in his driveway. The mailman pulls up and it scares him. He starts shaking.
J: That’s incredibly unfortunate. So, with the ideas were moving forward now, one of the things that I’m oftentimes asked, and I’m curious what your thoughts are on this? If the petition that we’re moving forward now is, primarily deals with medicinal use only.
N: Correct.
J: And some people have asked me, and I’m going to ask you Norma. What do you think about the idea that if we can pass medicinal-use marijuana in Oklahoma, do all the parents of these sick children, and the children of the sick grandparents, and people are all very much for medicinal, what happens if they get their legalization? What happens to the recreational side? Do we lose a lot of support? Because that is some of the arguments that I’ve heard against signing this petition is – why divide the team? Will we lose them? And no recreational will come forward.
N: That has been a divide across the nation. It has taken Oregon and Washington this many years, two decades, because of that divide between the people who were only for medicinal, and those that wanted it for everyone. So, that’s still gonna be a divide. There are people who think that it should only be allowed for medicinal use. They do believe that it is God’s plant. But they don’t think that people need to get high. Although, anybody who says that is just ignorant because getting high is nothing like they had ever experienced it before.
I’ve had this discussion with Mark Woodward. And Mark Woodward is a nice enough guy. But he’s never had to have anything more than just some alcohol when he was young in college. He had some pain with his feet, and had a little bit of pain medication for that. But nothing to understand what euphoria is. Opiates, pain medications, and alcohol, are totally different than marijuana. It is a euphoriant. It basically is some way to relax, put a smile on your face…
J: Take the end off.
N: Take the edge off. Yes, it doesn’t affect your body in the way that drugs and alcohol do.
J: Oftentimes, people talk about the difference, and compare marijuana to alcohol. I’m not ashamed or embarrassed to say publicly that I’ve partaken in both. And that one clearly has, I lose more control of myself, and lose more control my mouth, and some of my motor skills drinking. You would never imagine, that would never happen smoking marijuana. One of the things I like most about what Oregon and Colorado have done, is I think that they proven to our naysayers, over here that are worried about moving for medicinal first, that it doesn’t stop there. Right? My response to a lot of people one say, “I’m not signing the petition. I don’t want to get involved in this because I think they won’t support me later.” Is come on man. Right? How hard then is it for a law-enforcement officer to decipher the difference between a legitimate medicinal-marijuana user versus a non-medicinal marijuana user? The judicial efficiency, and the cost of enforcement, and divvying it up is going to be so great, that really, I think it’s not going to be an issue. And the recreational will probably come in as a matter of just par for the course.
N: I do too. I think that once we, that medical marijuana is accepted, and used by so many people that the recreational part will just fall in. Maybe through the legislature. But things like the city council in Dallas yesterday announced they are going to just direct their law enforcement to write to a ticket for a certain amount. It’s probably an ounce or less. I don’t know for sure what their law is going to say. The police chief said, “I hate it. But it’s just so much easier and cheaper.”
J: Right.
N: And that’s the bottom line. It takes an officer off of the street when they pull you over and find a joint in your car. Your car has got to be towed in. They’ve got to spend at least three or four hours booking you. And then the city, or the county jail, wherever you’re at, they have to spend time, effort, money, and resources to lock you up. And post a bond. Get the judge out of bed. And then you’ve got to pay a bondsman.
J: Then you’ve got to come and pay that Oklahoma City defense lawyer. Right?
N: It’s just so much wasted effort and expense.
J: It really is. It’s unfortunate, you know? Because we could cut all of that by just giving in to our old way of thinking. You know? I think that Oklahoma’s coming around to it. I really do. I would like anybody who’s listening to reach out and find Norma. Find a petition. I’m going to ask you to leave one here. I’m going to get you 20 signatures tomorrow night. So, if I can get you 20 signatures tomorrow night, and I think that anybody interested in helping can get 20. I know 20 people who would be willing,
N: Sure.
J: And encourage everybody to just out there, and get involved, and be informed. I think the informational value of people sharing these stories. And for you traveling around, and sharing the stories of the people that you see, is really going be what changes the law. It’s not going to be a politician. You know? Nobody’s going to be able to run. Poor Chad Moody. The drug lawyer trying to run for governor. Boy, he came close didn’t he? But I loved what he did, because he united a bunch of people.
Joe Dorman, and Dax Eubank, and I think a lot of people are just sick and darn tired of laws designed to govern individual actions with no crime. A big issue in Oklahoma right now, as we all know, is this Oklahoma County jail. And everybody’s been trying to figure out what to do with his jail, since before I became a lawyer. And they say it holds 2800 people at any given point in time. I think my professional opinion would be the sheriff has really funny bookkeeping, and there’s probably a lot more than that in there at any given point in time. But wouldn’t that solve a great Oklahoma City problem? Pulling everybody out of the Oklahoma County jail that’s there on simple possession.
I spent five years as a public defender. Defending folks who could not post bond. And a lot, not a few, a lot of those cases, I of course don’t have the exact numbers, I think a good guess would be a third of my cases during that five years, included simple possession of marijuana. And these folks can’t even post a $4000 bond. You know? And it’s destroying their lives. The rest of their lives.
N: They’ve lost their job, probably. Or, they’ve spent next week’s rent money. Or, it could be that now the children are going to get take, away from. What’s that cost your children? That’s another thing too. With our prison system, our state prison system, all those people that are in jail, an average is supposedly is $18,500 to keep somebody in prison all year. But has anybody ever asked what it costs to keep their children in foster care? And we are desperate. We are so desperate that Mary Fallin has radio commercials right now asking for people to volunteer to be foster parents. We need more because evidently we’re locking them all up still, and so we need more people take care or more children.
We have ruined the last three decades of families. We could have kept those families together. We could have fixed them if they had an addiction problem, and kept them together and brought them above everything. Because basically, on the bottom line, of all of these issues, is poverty. That’s the bottom line. When you help a family stand up, and come out of that, and take their children above that, and education them better, we better everybody in the state. It’s going to take at least, if we stop all this misbehavior today, and started treating our families right, it would take at least 30 years to straighten it out. We have harmed so many people.
And our jail, I don’t know if you realize this? Our jail holds about the same amount people as LA County jail. How many people are in LA? Three-point-something million. You know how many people are in our whole state? Three-point-something million. Yeah. So we have as much, we have 10 times as many per hundred-thousand people in our jail.
J: And we incarcerate more women. Most of those women are in prison based upon drug charges. Right?
N: Oh yeah.
J: The destruction of family, you know, it’s not really the point of this podcast, but I’m fine to share, and I share with most of my clients, I think it’s okay with my dad if I share it publicly, as well. I’m 37 years old. When I was a young kid, my dad, child of the 70s. His father was a retired OCPD. Back then he was still active Oklahoma City police officer. My dad had a good job working here for state agency. Oklahoma City police decided to run a fun little sting at the state agency. They wanted to see who was using, and who wasn’t using. They sent in a very beautiful young Oklahoma City police officer, who is still an Oklahoma City police officer today. She had long hair, and a nice rack, and she flirted with my dad. and I were remember my dad tell the story. She was like, you know, “What can a girl do to get a little weed around here?” And my dad, like the gentleman that he is, went to his friend and was like, “You know, she’s really cute.” Not minding the fact that I was at home, with my also very beautiful mother. And he got her a 20 sack of weed Norma. And he sold her this 20 sack of weed. And she was an undercover police officer. Never been in trouble a day in his life. Never any drug charges, ever, in his life. Again, kind of the rebel son, but the son, nonetheless, of an Oklahoma City police officer. And they just decided they were to going to make an example out of him. He hired a lawyer who everybody thought was the Big Bad Wolf, and was going to take care everything. In fact, he was one of those ‘bleed-‘em and plead-‘em’ lying, sleazy defense lawyers. And he gets him all the way up to jury trial. And he says to my dad, “Sorry, man. Today’s the day you’re going to prison.” Prison? And I’m a toddler on my mom’s hip. My mom starts crying. She freaks out. “What are you talking about? What are you talking about?” And, luckily they, they knew somebody who helped them that very particular day. And my dad did not, in fact, have to go to prison that day. But he became a convicted felon on a 10 year suspended sentence. And you can watch my lifeline. And I think it’s a fun story. The friend of his, who he got it from, is still his best friend today. And you can watch their lifeline together. They got married about the same time in life. They worked for the same company. They had kids about the same age. His son was just a few months younger than me. And everything was trudging along until this one incident.
Four joints and $20, and everything about my life stopped. He didn’t go to prison, but he did lose his job. He was a convicted felon for distribution of CDS. Which nobody considers he sold somebody a couple of joints, and he can never, ever, ever get another good job. Therefore, instead of my dad retiring from a nice state agency, and having benefits and insurance, and us having the ability to move and grow as a family. It stunted us. My dad spent the rest of his life doing hard, laborious jobs. He worked for Bridgestone-Firestone building tires ‘til it destroyed his body. And when he couldn’t do that anymore, he went to 7-11. And work at 7-11 and, on cues, and got robbed at gunpoint. And nobody wanted ever care. I guess he deserves it because he’s a convicted felon. Because one time he got pretty lady a joint.
You know? It is personal for me. I look back upon it now, and I guess I could I’m thankful that that happen to my dad. But for that experience, I probably wouldn’t be sitting here right. I would have had a very, very different life. But instead we were very poor. And we were stuck living in a tough neighborhood. And I had to go to tough school, and had to learn to be real tough, real young, just to defend myself. And being raised in an environment of poor, and police not being somebody that we could trust anymore. And couldn’t be somebody that I go. Developed me as who I am. Of course, I’m not, I don’t think, a crazy cop hater. Although, some people would disagree. I hold them to a high-level of standard. I hold them to a standard that I expect they should be better in the average citizen. I think that they should do for us, as they in fact work for us.
So, for me, it worked out all right. But I’m an exception to the rule.
N: You are.
J: Right? I’m not the norm, and I know that. And I see these people come in. And moms and dads who are devastated. You know? If it’s their charge, they’re devastated about what means for their kids. If it’s their kid, as much as they’re mad at their kid, and parents get mad at their kids over this. But, with me, behind closed doors, tears in their eyes. “It’s just marijuana! Why?” He’s going to get kicked out of school. His opportunity is gone forever. And law enforcement just don’t care. And when the law, because they’re following the law.
N: Right.
J: And you broke the law, and you suffer the consequences. And that’s all fine and well. And so, instead of it being us against law enforcement, it really should be let’s just change the law. Then law enforcement can follow the law, and not destroy lives and family. And we don’t have to be like, “Why are you destroying us?” Why does it have to be us against them? And we can all come together, and instead of fighting, don’t arrest people. Why not take them home? Right?
Back in the day, that’s what would have happened to me if I got in trouble. The cops would say, “Little Miss Ford, we’re going to tell your mother!” And they could put me in the back of the car. And they could haul me home, and the blistering I would take on my backend, would be a whole worse. And I would probably not do it anymore.
But instead, we haul ‘em to jail. We degrade them. We take away their dignity. I’ve been arrested three times. I know how degrading it is to squat down in front of a stranger, and have to remove my underwear, and put on jail panties. We are doing this to people. It affects them for the rest of their lives. I tell the story, and if I allow myself to go back there, to really tell the story, I’m as tearful as I was when I was sitting in that jail cell.
N: You’re going to make me cry.
J: Sitting on that jail floor. Bawling and crying, “Please don’t make me put on jail panties!” You know? And why do we want to continue to do that to folks? Why, as a system of justice, do our prosecutors want to do that to folks? Do our cops and our jailers want to do that to folks? And why is it that our legislature continues to think it’s okay? And I’ll tell you why. Because it hasn’t happened to them.
N: Right. Exactly. Or, if it did happened to them, they don’t want to share that. Because they’re embarrassed.
J: Or, they knew somebody, and they picked up the phone, and that just got pushed right under the rug.
N: I’ve seen that. One thing that we could change, that would be very easy to help us in the long run, is I would like to see a legislator ask that, instead of ‘CDS’, I want the drug listed on every case. That way, I can do a search through those records, those DOC records, although they are very discombobulated to try to search through. But then I could find out exactly how many people are in there for heroin, methadone, or meth, and other drugs. And separate those so we know each person’s crime. And course, if I was God, I would say no plea agreements. Absolutely none.
J: Wouldn’t it be nice? I really wish I could try most cases too, and it’s unfortunate because it’s too much of a risk for my client. And we talk about it. And I’ll be talking more about jury nullification in the future too, but the idea jury notifications is working. It is working in Oklahoma County right now. And although lawyers are prohibited by judges and the law from getting up and asking jurors to not follow the law, jurors have an inherent right to say, if you’re sitting on that jury, and they are trying to convict someone for simple possession of marijuana, or whatever and you find that that is morally repulsive to you, that you get to vote ‘not guilty’ whether or not he was in possession of it or not. And the way our laws are designed and created, before you came we recorded a couple podcasts and talk about marijuana and possession. Possession has nothing to do with ownership. It has to do with constructive possession. If you have access to it, dominion and control. And jurors don’t know that either. But it takes so much courage for my client to trust me to trust 12 strangers. To listen to the evidence, and look within themselves, and ask themselves, “Is this something we want to send this person to prison for?”
It’s not fair for me to ask my client to have that much courage. To put his faith in a busted system. Especially a system, wherein technically it’s against the law. And technically the cops did everything right. And the judge is going to tell you, “Don’t use your mind and your heart. You just have to follow the law that I give you.” It’s hard to ask them to do that. It’s unfair of me to ask my clients to do that. The always know that they have that option. But they also know that if the judge catches on to that’s what, he can throw my happy butt in jail with that client for being in contempt. But jurors need to know, and the public needs to know, that we have a right to say, “No.”
And there are two places that we do it. One, is of the Capitol by signing the petitions, getting the laws changed, and using the democratic process. And the other place to do it, the final resting place of the voice of the people, which is in that jury box.
N: Well, I have been on both sides that. I’ve been to court, with I don’t know how many people, over the last 25 years. Probably only about five cases could afford to go to jury. Most people don’t realize that. Even the jurors sitting there don’t think that. They think that everybody gets up in front of a jury. And that’s absolutely not the case. I would never trust a jury because there they choose the most ignorant people.
J: Well, the real sadness, is we don’t choose anybody. How a jury gets picked is, we kick off the people who are smart enough to vote for the other side.
N: Right. Exactly.
J: What you get left with is: one, we don’t know anything about, or two, weren’t strong enough personalities to be able to voice it. And then the scariest thing about that is, she’d tend to follow the leader, and leader’s often times the government.
N: And the two times I’ve been on jury I listen to that judge’s instructions. Sounded to me he was going to try to lock me up if I tried to acquit those people. And I know more things than they know. So, I can understand how they do what they do.
J: Well, Norma while you’re here is there anything else you want to know about what’s going on with you, and the petition, and the movement here in Oklahoma? Of how we can get involved. I know we know how to find you. Is there anything besides signing that petition that you need, or you would want people to come do and to help this movement in Oklahoma?
N: This is the main working on right now is the petition. Like I said, we have until the 29th of December to hand them in. So, it’s real important that you find someone now. Within the next two weeks, and get a petition and get 20 of your friends to sign it. And you can find us at greenthevoteok.com or Green the Vote Facebook. My name is Norma Sapp, and my phone number is 405-760-9568. Call me if you’re lost, I’ll come to you. If you can’t figure it out, I’ll tell you how to figure it out.
J: Thank you so much Norma. And I’m going to make sure all the information is available on our website as well. So, if you didn’t catch it, you can find it there. And thank you so much Norma for coming, and more importantly thank you so much for the effort that you’re making a being the change that we all want the see.
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